| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Quinn
Senior
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 1186
Location: Buenos Aires
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:01 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| BostonBert wrote: | Jack thanks for bringing some original thought to the discussion. Watch out Quinn it sounds like you have an echo in here.
Asking price has nothing to do with this. Actual value does. The best he is worth in the NFL is a 5th round pick. That is a FACT not an opinion.
If the team is willing to give up such a great talent (your words not mine) for a 5th round pick (a round that is a complete crapshoot), the team has clearly made the decision that they are parting with the player no matter what the return (if any) is. Maybe the Cincinnati Bengals would put the spin on after this type a trade, but the Rooney Family is a good group of people and they decided Holmes was a detriment to their organization. A 5th round pick is next to nothing (your comments seem to back up that opinion)...so Why would they be so opposed to letting him go for nothing? |
Perhaps it would be easier for you to understand the process if you look at the history of player trades in the NFL. It's not like the NBA or the NHL where top draft picks are traded for the best players. The system just hasn't existed in that format. There have been some strange trades over the past couple years, where players were very much overvalued and the teams trading them got plenty in return (Cutler might top that list).
In other words, you are rarely going to see a player traded for a top draft pick.
As for Holmes, it's really not as complicated as you make it out to be:
1) Pitt sets initial demands for trading player (let's say hypothetically, it was a 2nd round pick)
2) Teams reject the asking price
3) Pitt lowers asking price
4) Best value they got for the player was a 5th round pick
5) Pitt accepted
Had nobody been willing to offer a 5th round pick, Pitt then would have dropped to a 6th...or perhaps even a higher pick (4th?) years down the road.
Regardless, this is a business we're talking about. You have an asset you no longer want, you get the most value back that you can.
Aaaaaannnd, this is when I bring up the obvious comparison: Randy Moss was traded to New England for...wait for it...a 4th round pick (110th overall). He had his best season of his career that year with almost 1500 yards and 23-24 TDs.
As for your question, "why wouldnt' they cut him"? It just goes back to what I mentioned above: you try to get the most value regardless of the circumstances if they are within reason. Public opinion does seem to set that dictate the severity of a situation (Michael Vick/Atlanta).
Meanwhile, I'm curious...if this pedestal you're putting the Rooneys on is so sacred, why is Rapinberger still on the team? Shouldn't he be cut too if you think Holmes should?
_________________
Welcome Back DK!
Update the Calipari Coaching Tree |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ShadesOf96and98
Hall of Fame
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 2623
Location: The Big Easy
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
hahahaha i'm glad you're helping Bert "understand the process." Come on Bert, how you gonna comment on this shit without understanding the process? Yeesh...you act like you follow football closely and have direct knowledge of stuff like this 
Lets make this easy for everyone...you know why Santonio Holmes was traded for a fifth round pick? Because that's what he's worth.
Santonio Holmes is not Brandon Marshall. Brandon Marshall has caught 100 passes for over 1,100 yards in three straight seasons, and caught 10 touchdowns last season. Brandon Marshall is also extremely physically gifted and a franchise-type offensive talent. Santonio Holmes isn't close to the player Brandon Marshall is.
Santonio Holmes is not an an elite WR. Santonio Holmes is not a game-changer. Santonio Holmes is not a guy you build your offense around. He's a nice player with serious character flaws and he's worth a fifth round pick because that's his level of his value. He had a good year last year, but only caught five touchdowns. He's only caught more than 55 passes in a season once. He's only caught more than five touchdowns once. He's proven he can't return punts like he was supposed to be able to do coming out of school. He fumbles a lot.
If I were the Jets, I'd be perfectly happy with this deal. It is totally worth trading a fifth round pick to take a shot on Santonio Holmes. But if they had given up anything more they would have been overpaying and it is absolutely reasonable to believe the Steelers would have cut him |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BostonBert
Senior
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 1229
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quinn wrote: |
In other words, you are rarely going to see a player traded for a top draft pick. |
True, but in the NFL you rarely see players worthy of high picks being traded. If you understood the system you would know these things. 
| Quinn wrote: | As for Holmes, it's really not as complicated as you make it out to be:
1) Pitt sets initial demands for trading player (let's say hypothetically, it was a 2nd round pick)
2) Teams reject the asking price
3) Pitt lowers asking price
4) Best value they got for the player was a 5th round pick
5) Pitt accepted
Had nobody been willing to offer a 5th round pick, Pitt then would have dropped to a 6th...or perhaps even a higher pick (4th?) years down the road.
Regardless, this is a business we're talking about. You have an asset you no longer want, you get the most value back that you can. |
I'm making things complicated? Are you shitting me? I said the Steelers got a 5th round pick because that is all he is worth. The market dictates what he is worth, and that is basically what you are trying to say with all this mumbo jumbo. Of course there is a negotiation process involved.
| Quinn wrote: | | Aaaaaannnd, this is when I bring up the obvious comparison: Randy Moss was traded to New England for...wait for it...a 4th round pick (110th overall). He had his best season of his career that year with almost 1500 yards and 23-24 TDs. |
Aaaaaannnd, he was traded only 2 years earlier for a 1st round pick (7th Overall) and former first round pick Napoleon Harris. The reason he was only worth a 4th two years later was because he managed to be a total jackass during his 2nd chance to prove he wasn't one. He refused to participate in offseason workouts under Kiffen and was threatening to not show up for training camp. The Raiders shopped Moss throughout the entire 2005 offseason and the best they got was a 4th. Once again the market set the value on a guy with some problems.
| Quinn wrote: | | Meanwhile, I'm curious...if this pedestal you're putting the Rooneys on is so sacred, why is Rapinberger still on the team? Shouldn't he be cut too if you think Holmes should? |
I'm not saying the Rooneys are a bunch of Saints. They clearly draw the line at some point when it comes to cleaning up their team. They just spent the last week leading up to the draft putting out feelers on trading the guy. Many believe they asked the Commissioner to hand down his punishment prior to the draft instead of after as originally planned because they thought there would be a chance to move him this weekend. Make no mistake about it, they are terribly uncomfortable with Big Ben as the marquee player on their offense, but they aren't going to cut or basically give away a 2-time SB winning QB who is at the center of their offense. Big Ben is a better player and far more important than Holmes would have ever been.
And as far as the quality of player that Holmes actually is, read Shades' post. Clearly he is the wordsmith around here. I don't have the patience to eloquently explain why I think a player isn't all that great. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PintOGuinness
Senior
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 1286
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Comparing Randy Moss to Santonio Holmes is like comparing a BMW to a KIA. Holmes couldn't hold Moss' jock.
_________________
Word to your motha! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Quinn
Senior
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 1186
Location: Buenos Aires
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You're correct, Bert. You did say he was worth a 5th round pick. But your initial response to the statement "Getting one of the best WRs in the NFL for a 5th rd pick is highway robbery" was "No its not". And then went right to the "The Steelers were prepared to CUT him" followed by your person opinions on his character.
Those comments suggest that you think that Tannenbaum did not do a good job with this move. As if the Jets could have waited for Holmes to be cut and give up nothing for him versus paying a 5th round pick. And frankly, it is in my opinion that you are incorrect in that assumption...there would have been other suiters willing to "take a chance" on him with a 5-7th round pick.
As a player, Holmes makes just over $700k and has only been in the league for 3 years. Unlike Jack, i don't consider him one of the "best WRs"...but the term is arbitrary. Is he in the top 30 for his position? Perhaps. Will he be a good 2nd or 3rd option in the Jets passing games? Probably.
But when all is said and done, trading a 5th round pick for Holmes was a great move on the field for the Jets, especially when you factor in the "trading" business in the NFL. Holmes for a 5th COULD be a better value than Edwards was for a 3rd and a 5th. Of course, Holmes will need to perform to prove that.
But your subsequent responses in this thread seem to deviate a bit from your initial post that the Jets made a bad trade. If that's the case, I think everyone is in agreement. Just like we all agree that Moss is a superior player to Holmes or pretty much any other WR in the game, perhaps the history of the position outside of one Jerry Rice (anyone think Moss can get the 49 TDs to tie Rice? Just needs three seasons with 17 TDs)
_________________
Welcome Back DK!
Update the Calipari Coaching Tree |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BostonBert
Senior
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 1229
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quinn, throughout this entire discussion the only thing I have taken issue with is the perceived value of the player. Jack proclaimed that it was highway robbery to which I simply said "No its not" and then continued to explain that the Jets did not get any kind of steal/deal whatever you want to call it.
I don't put a lot of value on a 5th round pick, so I look at this deal and say it is pretty much no-risk. If the guy becomes a headache again (before or after his 4 game suspension), then they can just cut him and move on in a capless year. Jack was trying to make his man crush Tannenbaum out to be some kind of genius and that simply isn't the reality of the situation. Even before the Holmes move, Tannenbaum put together one of the most volatile locker rooms in the NFL. They have a ton of individual talent on their roster but I'm not sold that they can figure out a way to turn that into wins. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Quinn
Senior
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 1186
Location: Buenos Aires
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Cool, I hear ya. And I do get that you don't like him as an individual nor do you like the Jets/move the Jets made. It's all fair since we're all entitled to our opinions.
You've assessed a 5th round pick as risky...I think most people would agree with that.
But Bert, the player had almost 1300 yards receiving last year and he makes only $700k. If you want to simplify everything and just look at those numbers...I don't think it's a stretch for anyone to call trading a 5th round pick for a 1300 yard receiver as a steal. Not a ton of 1st - 4th round pick WRs this year are gonna come close to doing that. We're not talking about a player who had those numbers 5 years ago and a new team hopes he can get back to where he was half a decade ago. Nor a guy who will make many millions this year and mess with the cap.
Just think at the core, if any team could get a guy for a 5th round pick that put up that number and makes under a million...it's a pretty good deal, perhaps a steal IF like you suggest, the player gets past the off-field issues.
_________________
Welcome Back DK!
Update the Calipari Coaching Tree |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BostonBert
Senior
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 1229
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old Cage
Hall of Fame
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 5067
Location: The Eastern Provinces
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I can't think of a team that I would rather that he mess up this fall.
_________________
"Jack didn’t have any envy in him," Calipari said. "He was the greatest coach to ever coach here." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jack
Hall of Fame
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 3028
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Getting Holmes for a 5th rd was a Highway Robbery. Congrats to Mike Tannenbaum. This guy just loves to wheel and deal and its cool that he's an alum.
Steals happen in the NFL. Teams do overpay and get abused in trades. Getting good talent at a skill position for a late rd pick can be an excellent move.
The Pats got Moss for a 4th rd pick - a steal.
The Pats got a 1 for an old Seymour - a steal.
Holmes will become an excellent weapon for the Jets & Sanchez and to add this 1st rd pick/SB MVP to the arsenal for merely a 5th rd pick is a steal imho. We'll see. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Quinn
Senior
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 1186
Location: Buenos Aires
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'll admit it now...I think they should cut him. I've never turned my ipod off on a flight but I expect all NFL WRs to display more responsibility than me . I've never been asked to turn it off.
I hear ya though Bert, if they ask you to turn it off, you do it. Especially if I'm trying to remedy my public persona as part of my job.
_________________
Welcome Back DK!
Update the Calipari Coaching Tree |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PintOGuinness
Senior
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 1286
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So what do Jet fans think of the Santonio trade now?
_________________
Word to your motha! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BostonBert
Senior
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 1229
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bravo PintOGuinness! Bravo! Excellent job bringing this back up.
Santonio Holmes is a moron. The guy who brought him to New York doesn't look all that smart these days either. If it was my team, I would fire both of them.
_________________
Maroon Musket.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swampy
Hall of Fame
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 2437
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hey Bert, we should wait to hear from Jack on this one. He's the expert around here on the J-E-T-S! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ShadesOf96and98
Hall of Fame
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 2623
Location: The Big Easy
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
HIGHWAY ROBBERY! #barf
_________________
| BUMPA wrote: | | You are one jaded dude. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
