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| Do you feel the coaches were "unethical" intentionally walking the player? |
| yes |
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47% |
[ 9 ] |
| no |
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52% |
[ 10 ] |
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| Total Votes : 19 |
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Message |
local
Junior
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 742
Location: WMass
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 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeff93 wrote: | Sports is not about parity, it is about winning and losing. If we keep wasting all this time trying to level the playing field and making sure the lesser performers don't feel bad, then sports become ballet or some other activity. It gets to the point where there is no score, the "winner" is just whoever feels better about themselves at the end of the day.
You have to take these 9 and 10 year olds and fast forward 15 years. We are starting to see (at least I am in my position) this victim mentality creep into the workplace. People, particularly the 22-27 group, seem to think that accommodations will be made for their weaknesses as opposed to them having to work to overcome their weaknesses.
One example: We had a young woman working on a project who was floored when she realized she had to take her work and present it at a client meeting in front of about 100 people.
She basically said "I can't do that. I am not good at public speaking. I just figured someone else would present my work." She got fired. No one put their arms around her shoulder, consoled her, told her it would be okay or any of this other crap. She is out of work and moved back in with her parents who will undoubtedly continue to coddle her indefinitely as this scenario plays itself out over and over again.
So we - parents, friends, schools, society - have done this woman a huge favor by protecting her ego from failure by avoiding placing her in situations where she had to overcome or at least acknowledge her weaknesses, right? Yeah, right. This person doesn't know how to succeed in the workplace, and she is far from alone. This is one of about a half dozen examples I could give you just from my first-hand experience.
Don't let yourself be fooled, we are raising generations of people with this mindset, and it will be devastating to our workforce in America. We talk a lot about how sports and other activities have such a positive influence on kids, but the reality is, they teach us how to compete and how to succeed.
Ronney has no future in baseball. Get past it. He might turn out to be a fabulous golfer, or chef, or writer or consultant or whatever. Hopefully he moves on and realizes where his true strengths lie, and he pursues those with as much passion as the folks in Bountiful, UT are pursuing this "story." |
This slippery slope argument is really nonsense. Everyone recognizes the differences exist between children and adults. You treat them differently as does everyone else. The slippery slope is a logical phallacy. For the most part almost every idea taken to its most extreme is a bad one. That is why as humans we must make judgements about what is appropriate. We decide at what age it is appropriate to allow children to do what things. It's not about being a victim it's about being a child.
As you said "Romney has no future in baseball". Well that puts him in a category with 99% of other 9 year olds who also have no future in baseball. It's not the minor leagues the issue is not really if you have a future in the game or not. At 9 should you really have to start your training for your adult carrer? When I was 9 I wanted to be a garbage man because I thought it would be cool to ride on the back of the truck!
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."- HST |
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bdance
Senior
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 1147
Location: Westminster
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Some wise-beyond-their-years kids in that manufactured controversy. Can't say the same about some of the adults. The NH Koach Mark McCauley stands out in particular as a hypocrite extraordinaire. |
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Used to be VOR
Hall of Fame
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 5639
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| local wrote: | | This slippery slope argument is really nonsense. Everyone recognizes the differences exist between children and adults. You treat them differently as does everyone else. The slippery slope is a logical phallacy. For the most part almost every idea taken to its most extreme is a bad one. That is why as humans we must make judgements about what is appropriate. We decide at what age it is appropriate to allow children to do what things. It's not about being a victim it's about being a child. |
You stated earlier that kids playing baseball who are not in high school should not be involved in games with strategy such as that. I assume the logic behind that statement is that kids not yet in high school should not be exposed to the sort of "psychological trauma" you seem to feel would occur in situations like this.
As a high school coach, I can say that it would be a terrible thing if none of these kids had played a game under actual baseball conditions before they played on high school teams. As it is kids know so little about the game as compared to when I was growing up. Today kids mostly watch the highlights and do not understand any of the intricacies of the game. Also, if they have been "protected" from failure their entire lives they actually are pretty much guaranteed to experience exactly that....and not handle it well.
While I agree 10 year old baseball was probably not the appropriate place for this type of strategy, the argument that slippery slope in these situations is a fallacy is untrue. I have attended meetings for babe ruth baseball where parents have argued for everything from equal playing time to not keeping score. I have seen these same parents who are so "anti results" come around a couple years later in high school and argue that another kid should have been cut instead of their son.
Sports has been a huge part of my life since I can remember. I suffered through many incredibly tough losses. As a pitcher I often felt solely responsible for losing games. In the end, my parents and coaches explained that learning how to lose was just as much of the experience as any other part. It made me stronger and better able to handle the obstacles that I have faced in other aspects of my life, both as a teen and an adult. Now I spend a significant portion of my life coaching youth sports (basketball and baseball) and I always am wary of walking the line between education and competition. But I long ago realized no matter how hard any coach, league, or sport tries you can never make everybody happy. You will always have winners and losers, even if their is no scoreboard. Kids are smarter and tougher than most adults give them credit for, and if handled correctly kids can learn and grow from all sorts of experiences.
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Turns out, just because you write your name on a baby doesn't mean you get to keep it." |
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Jeff93
Junior
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Auburn, MA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I respect all your opinions, yet I stand behind my comment. You start teaching kids life lessons way before they are 9. Some lessons are painful, that is just a reality. I have endured them, all of you have endured them, and everyone I know has endured them. My point is that there is a dramatic shift toward protecting kids from the sense of failur that comes from not succeeding in a particular venture or situation. That may be sports or somthing else, but it is important to experience all of it.
When I was coaching 8 or 9 years ago at the high school and college levels, I was already seeing the push not to cut anyone at tryouts, let every team make the playoffs, etc. It is crap. It was then and it is now.
Frankly, I don't know what I would have done in this particular situation (the Romney baseball thing) and I am not going to question or support the coach's judgment. But to say that this trend towards hypersensitivity about our kids' experiences in sports and other activities is different from how things are handled in the workplace is incorrect. It IS affecting these kids' mindsets when they get to the workplace, and that is my entire point.
As maybe you can tell, this is a bit of a hot button issue for me, so sorry for the rant. |
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Kosty
Hall of Fame
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 5690
Location: The Shore to the South
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeff93 wrote: | I respect all your opinions, yet I stand behind my comment. You start teaching kids life lessons way before they are 9. Some lessons are painful, that is just a reality. I have endured them, all of you have endured them, and everyone I know has endured them. My point is that there is a dramatic shift toward protecting kids from the sense of failur that comes from not succeeding in a particular venture or situation. That may be sports or somthing else, but it is important to experience all of it.
When I was coaching 8 or 9 years ago at the high school and college levels, I was already seeing the push not to cut anyone at tryouts, let every team make the playoffs, etc. It is crap. It was then and it is now.
Frankly, I don't know what I would have done in this particular situation (the Romney baseball thing) and I am not going to question or support the coach's judgment. But to say that this trend towards hypersensitivity about our kids' experiences in sports and other activities is different from how things are handled in the workplace is incorrect. It IS affecting these kids' mindsets when they get to the workplace, and that is my entire point.
As maybe you can tell, this is a bit of a hot button issue for me, so sorry for the rant. |
And while we are at it, let's ban dodgeball so the fat, slow kids don't feel awkward and let's not keep score in any games because we don't want kids traumatized to be labeled "losers" for one game. Why don't we just ban all competitive sports until they reach high school.....why bother right?
Cheerleader, I agree with everything you said. |
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LS71
Hall of Fame
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 5448
Location: Lost in Space
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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There was a report related to this on this morning's Today Show. The video of that report is the 5th bullet from the top under the header of "Today Show Video This Week's Videos". The link says: Teach your kids about winning and losing. I don't kow how to link directly to it but here's the link to the Today Show.
Although I feel bad for the kid, it's never too early to teach kids that sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. To insulate kids from that harsh reality does them more harm than good.
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"Win without boasting, lose without crying." -- Julius Erving |
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Crank
Senior
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1052
Location: Berkshire Expatriate in MetroWest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Can no one here READ for F*CKS sake...I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE WINNING AND LOSING...I JUST THINK IT'S BUSH LEAGUE TO GET TO THAT POINT THE WAY THAT THEY DID.
It's called reading comprehenson, people.
I'll spell it out for you:
1. I'm fine with them keeping score and declaring a winner and loser.
2. I'm fine with the disabled child making the last out to lose the game.
3. I think it takes a pretty low character "adult" to intentionally walk the previous batter to SPECIFICALLY get to the disabled one.  |
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Jeff93
Junior
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Auburn, MA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Relax, Crank, I don't think people are arguing with you or your point. The discussion seems to have shifted to the issue in a broader societal context, which I may have precipitated, so I apologize for that.
Yeah, this specific incident is controversial, and there are plenty of people on both sides of the agrument about whether what the coach did was unethical or not. We'll never resolve that difference of opinion, so we move on. |
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