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^ Adding 4 assists (7 points) and 2 steals (0 points) against only 2 turnovers (-2 Points) to his line means that he accountned for 17 of the 64 points scored in that game, including 6-6 from the line. Just sayin'....

DrG wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:11 pm My best UMass PGs ever (not including Pip, who will finish somewhere on this list when all is said in done):

1) Chaz Williams
2) Alex Eldridge
3) Carl Smith
4) Edgar Padilla
5) Anton Brown (his alley-oop to Herndon in the Oklahoma game automatically qualifies him)
6) Joe DiSarcina (no, we didn't have peach baskets then, but at my age it feels like it.

If anybody wants to go really back and has the time, ask me about a guy named Clarence Hill.

Relative to the previous post, Joe DiSarcina and I were in the same class. Freshmen were not eligible to play varsity then, so the Cage would be packed for the freshman game with Julius and then pretty much empty out for the varsity game. The students knew.

No Chris Lowe???? Great player.

DrG wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:11 pm My best UMass PGs ever (not including Pip, who will finish somewhere on this list when all is said in done):

1) Chaz Williams
2) Alex Eldridge
3) Carl Smith
4) Edgar Padilla
5) Anton Brown (his alley-oop to Herndon in the Oklahoma game automatically qualifies him)
6) Joe DiSarcina (no, we didn't have peach baskets then, but at my age it feels like it.

If anybody wants to go really back and has the time, ask me about a guy named Clarence Hill.

Relative to the previous post, Joe DiSarcina and I were in the same class. Freshmen were not eligible to play varsity then, so the Cage would be packed for the freshman game with Julius and then pretty much empty out for the varsity game. The students knew.

Edgar was the 2nd most important player on the ‘96 team, we played a much tougher schedule that year and he played against some of the best guards in the country and he was able to get us into our offense all the time...he also guarded those players...we lost twice. The ‘95 team got better when Cal gave him the most minutes at pg. For much of the ‘96 and ‘97 season him and Carmelo were considered by most as one of the best backcourts in the country.
DK gave Chaz the ball and let him do what he wanted so naturally he was going to have stats. He played very little defense and he wasn’t known for making others better. I have nothing against Chaz and he did a couple things better than Edgar but none of those qualities would be described as point guard skills.

KahunaK wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:50 pmNo Chris Lowe???? Great player.

He was until Vance Walberg came in and ruined him.

DrG wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:23 pm

KahunaK wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:50 pmNo Chris Lowe???? Great player.

He was until Vance Walberg came in and ruined him.

Chaz is not even top 5 - I don't want to take away what he did for us because he did a lot, but for my money I would take any of these guys before him (in no specific order):

Padilla
Brown
Lowe
Smith
Eldridge
DK

Chaz carried this program on his back and I am not even sure how to compare that to the others I mentioned above. IMO Chaz had no choice but to be the alpha dog but I also think that he preferred it that way. Because of that I think he individually cost Umass as many wins as he created. That is the differentiator for me at least.

The truly great ones knew when to carry and when to share - Chaz did not share nearly as much as he really should have.

eldonabe wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:16 am Chaz is not even top 5 - I don't want to take away what he did for us because he did a lot, but for my money I would take any of these guys before him (in no specific order):

Padilla
Brown
Lowe
Smith
Eldridge
DK

Chaz carried this program on his back and I am not even sure how to compare that to the others I mentioned above. IMO Chaz had no choice but to be the alpha dog but I also think that he preferred it that way. Because of that I think he individually cost Umass as many wins as he created. That is the differentiator for me at least.

The truly great ones knew when to carry and when to share - Chaz did not share nearly as much as he really should have.

You say he didn't share as much as he should have immediately after saying he needed to be the alpha dog because he had no choice. It sounds like you're just trying to come up with a reason to not have him in your list. Maybe that's not the case, but it reads that way.

6thManPA wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:24 pm I'm appreciating the fact that no one so far this year, including reporters, announcers, coaches or posters on this board, have used the expression "Chicago toughness."

Thank you!

Not to burst your bubble, but it was mentioned a few times in the BYU game by the announcers. I feel like it's always going to be synonymous with him and his game.

Edit: Seeing 78's post now as well

eldonabe wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:16 am IMO Chaz had no choice but to be the alpha dog but I also think that he preferred it that way. Because of that I think he individually cost Umass as many wins as he created. That is the differentiator for me at least.
The truly great ones knew when to carry and when to share - Chaz did not share nearly as much as he really should have.

Did not share nearly as much as he really should have yet is the schools all time leader in assists in only three seasons. If only he shared as much as he should have maybe he could have been the NCAA all time leader in assists. Insert philsoraptor meme.

Chaz played hero ball in the last handful of games for that team and it has forever tarnished his legacy to so many people on this board.

InnervisionsUMASS wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:11 am You say he didn't share as much as he should have immediately after saying he needed to be the alpha dog because he had no choice. It sounds like you're just trying to come up with a reason to not have him in your list. Maybe that's not the case, but it reads that way.

Yes I guess it does read that way..... Like I said it is hard to compare him in any truly definitive way.

Among that list of other players that I would take over him, NONE have the volume of dumb/head scratching plays which offset the many great plays....

In short, I would trust any of those others much more than I would Chaz in any given game. I say that also knowing that if you stacked his 5 best games against each of the other's 5 best games - Chaz probably blows that list away.

eldonabe wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:37 pm

Yes I guess it does read that way..... Like I said it is hard to compare him in any truly definitive way.

I think because it's so hard to compare is why I don't knock him in the way that you do. How would any of those guys been with the teams Chaz played on? And how would Chaz have fared playing with people like Roe and Camby?

But that's the fun part about lists. It's all objective.


EDIT: That should say subjective. I'm keeping it the way it was because it was such a boneheaded mistake that I deserve being laughed and pointed at.

InnervisionsUMASS wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:13 pm

eldonabe wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:37 pm

Yes I guess it does read that way..... Like I said it is hard to compare him in any truly definitive way.

I think because it's so hard to compare is why I don't knock him in the way that you do. How would any of those guys been with the teams Chaz played on? And how would Chaz have fared playing with people like Roe and Camby?

But that's the fun part about lists. It's all objective.

Um, actually, it's all subjective.

JoleonLescottsHair wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:33 pm
Um, actually, it's all subjective.

Yep, ugh. What a goof.

InnervisionsUMASS wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:13 pm I deserve being laughed and pointed at.

Put me in Edgars camp. Chaz was Rucker Park. A one on one scorer, but did not excel at anything else and often led to guys just standing around to watch the Chad show. Edgar was a great defender, distributor, game manager with an underrated shot because he played with so others who could score.